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The following is a transcript of the 11/17/2013 broadcast of Ballistic Radio highlighting guest Justin Schnieders.

The podcast for this episode can be heard at http://ballisticradio.com/2013/11/18/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-36-november-17-2013/

Announcer: The views and opinions expressed on this program do not necessarily reflect those of 55KRC The Talk Station and Clear Channel Worldwide.
Announcer: Welcome to Ballistic Radio, Cincinnati’s only gun talk show. Join Us. We’re going to explore the topic of firearms and your rights as a law abiding citizen. Ballistic Radio, brought to you by Kyle’s Gun Shop in Finneytown, your source for premium firearms and ammunition. Now here’s your host, John Johnston, on 55KRC The Talk Station.
John Good evening, and welcome to Ballistic Radio brought to you by Kyle’s Gun Shop in Finneytown, your source for premium firearms and ammunition. I’m your host, John Johnston. Remember, you can always listen to past shows at ballisticradio.com and get the latest behind-the-scenes info at facebook.com/ballisticradio. Co hosting with me this evening is a real big bottle of DayQuil. Andy’s out of the studio because he had some stuff to do and Jim is MIA as well which is unfortunate because it really feels like I swallowed a frog. Literally. And also, too, I’ve taken so much DayQuil that I might say goofy things.

Anyway, tonight we’re going to be talking with an interesting gentleman. His name is Justin Schnieders. I probably got that close to right. Average everyday guy like you and I: construction worker, teaches CCW classes now. The reason why we’re going to be speaking with him, though, is he had an interesting event occur.

Everyone talks about, “Oh, you know, the chances you’re going to need your gun,” things like that. Justin actually went to visit a group of friends and ended up getting involved in a gunfight. Hey. So, I’ll get with him in just one second.

I want to bring up a couple things real quick. Ten days left to buy the Ballistic Radio T-Shirt that’s going to benefit Deputy Robin Hopkins. She was involved in a gunfight October 26th. So, about three weeks ago. Still in the hospital; still going to be in the hospital for a while - was critically injured. But, all the proceeds from the sale of the shirt go to help Robin and her family. And, if you would like to get one, you may purchase them at booster.com/ballisticradio.

So, other than that, if you’ve been paying attention to the web site, you’ll notice that I do not have the schedule, the guest schedule, for December and January posted. December, we’re going to be doing something a little bit special. And I was going to announce that tonight, but honestly, I want to talk as little as possible. So, we’ll do that next weekend. We do have some really cool things planned for December and January.

Anyway, without further ado, we’ll get Justin on the line. Justin, are you there?
Justin Yes, I am. How are you doing, John?
John I’ve been better, but hey, I made it. So.
Justin Good deal.
John Also, too, and I forgot to tell the listeners, but I know I told you before the show, we’ve got some really severe weather rolling through the local listening area. I know a lot of people listen online. We may get preempted with some tornado warnings tonight. If that happens, well, it happens. We’ll have Justin back on to talk about everything if we get interrupted too bad.

So, anyway, Justin, if you don’t mind, just introduce yourself real quick and just a little bit about your background, and we’ll go from there.
Justin Justin Schnieders. I’ve been a gun enthusiast for probably not as long as some of the listeners out there, actually. I got into them probably about twelve years ago. And, they just kind of snowballed, kind of like what we talk about on one of the web sites called “black rifle disease.” And, as I’ve progressed through the rifles and the shotguns, I eventually found my way towards pistols. We’d been waiting for concealed carry laws to get passed here in Missouri, and when they finally did, I started taking shooting pistols a whole lot more seriously. Just almost as soon as I was able to, I went ahead and got my concealed carry permit. I probably carry, oh, 75% of the time, to be honest with you all, and sometimes a little bit less. It just happens that I decided to carry the night that it really mattered. So.
John Well, there you go. And that’s - there’s going to be a couple different takeaways, and I want to preface this, and I know I’ve already told you this, but I’m going to point several things out as the show progresses. I’m not being critical of Justin at all. He got home to his family; none of his friends go hurt. Bad guy’s in jail, so hey, that’s a win in my book.

But, there are some really, really good lessons being taken from what happened to you, Justin. Number one would be “have a gun.” I mean, you just said that you didn’t carry all the time usually?
Justin I didn’t. I did not then. I sure do. If I’m wearing pants, I’ve got a gun on me now.
John I bet. So, why don’t you tell us about that night and what happened. We’ve got about three minutes left before the break.
Justin Ok. Make it real quick, or try to. A group of guys and I get together on Tuesday nights - just kind of a social hour type deal. And, headed out there one evening a little bit late. And actually, I had forgotten my gun, left it at the office earlier that day when I’d been changing to go to the gym and when I got back, I didn’t put my gun on before I went out to Brian’s. Brian - Stumpy is the gentleman who organized the group. Before I went out there, I was on my way up, I was, “you know, I probably ought to stop by the office and pick up my gun.” And, it’s a really good thing that I did, obviously, considering the outcome. Got to his law office, and went inside, talked to him for a little while. There were five of our other regulars that were sitting outside the office around a fire pit. And, I talked to Brian for about a half hour.

We decided we probably better go outside and join the rest of the group. Just as soon as we walked out the door, basically, a guy walked up to the group wearing a black hoodie, black scarf covering everything but his eyes, black jeans. I get a little bit criticized for situational awareness on this, you know: that was way out of the ordinary. You have to consider that night it was about forty degrees outside and raining and nasty, so I can see somebody being bundled up. It didn’t throw up the red flags like I thought it, like it probably should have with me.
John Well, you know, like I said earlier, I’m not going to criticize at all, because, like I said, as far as I’m concerned, you did just fine. So, what kind of neighborhood is this, if you don’t mind me asking?
Justin It is actually about 2 or 3 blocks from the State Capital here in Jefferson City. It’s not a bad neighborhood. It’s an older neighborhood. It’s about a block away from, actually, from the old main penitentiary here in Jefferson City. So.
John Ok.
Justin It’s mostly kind of renovated buildings where it’s mostly office buildings and apartments and stuff now.
John Alright. We’ve got about forty seconds left. We’re talking with Justin Schnieders. I’m going to say it wrong all night just because -
Justin You got it right to start out with. It’s Schnieders {pronounced as Shneeders}.
John Alright. We’re talking with him about the night he got shot. So, thirty seconds. What happened? You see a gentleman walk up to you, black hoodie, black clothes, face is covered?
Justin I scanned him real quick. You know, I was standing back behind some of the other guys and one of the things I noticed was he was holding a revolver in his hand, which was not normal for walking up to our group.
John No.
Justin And one of us, somebody made the comment, you know, “Can we help you?” And, he said, “Yes, this is a robbery.” And he raised the gun up, pointed at the group of us. And said, “Everybody drop what you have in your hands. We’re going inside.”
John Alright. And, we’ll talk a little more about what happened to Justin next. It is time for the commercial break, though. So, right now you are listening to Ballistic Radio on 55KRC The Talk Station.
John Welcome back to Ballistic Radio on 55KRC The Talk Station brought to you by Kyle’s Gun Shop in Finneytown. For those of you that are just tuning in, your host this evening is battling a bug of some sort or another. So, I sound dorkier than usual. Anyway, we’re talking with Justin Schnieders about the night he got shot. Justin, are you still there?
Justin Yes, I am.
John Excellent. So, you and a group of your friends are gathered outside of one of the individual’s law office. You said it was about forty degrees or so. A gentleman walks up to the group dressed all in black - black hoodie, has his face covered, has a gun - and says, “This is a robbery.” So -
Justin Yep.
John Let’s start from there.
Justin So, we’re in this carport area - which is where the fire pit was - there’s about two or three steps that go up to a side entrance into the building. The room that you go into is the conference room. He marched us in through the doorway. For whatever reason, I wasn’t thinking, and I didn’t - What would have been great is if I would have been able to be the first one in waiting for him with the gun drawn already. But unfortunately, I wasn’t thinking about that, and I didn’t do that. So. I actually - I’m almost wondering if subconsciously I didn’t, wasn’t trying to put myself between him and the rest of the guys anyways. But, in any case, I ended up being the last person going up the steps.

He had the gun, the revolver, in my back, jabbing me with it, telling me to move faster, trying to hurry us up into the door. There was seven of us total, plus the bad guy. And, I still remember - it probably wasn’t the smartest thing on my part, but, one of the things I tell people is, “Was I in fear for my life?” Yes. Absolutely. But, there was something about the guy that didn’t intimidate me, if that makes any kind of sense at all.
John Right.
Justin To me, there’s a difference. And, I actually turned my head and told him, “Quit shoving me, you S.O.B., I can’t move any faster than the guys in front of me.”
John Nice.
Justin Probably not the best to say to a guy with a gun in your back.
John No, probably not, but hey, live and learn.
Justin Yeah.
John I have a question for you just real quick and then I’ll you go on. When the gentleman with the gun, you know, when he brought the gun up and said this was a robbery, what was going through your head right then? What were you thinking?
Justin And I know you’re not trying to give me flak over any of this or anything, John, I’m clarifying because I have gotten a little bit of it over this.
John Yeah.
Justin There are several guys in this group that are practical jokers. And, at that moment, it was so unexpected and quite frankly caught us all by surprise, that I thought one of these guys just put somebody, one of the neighbors or something, up to some kind of bad joke.
John Right.
Justin And, that flashed through my head first, at first. Looked over at my buddy Brian because he’s who I probably would have suspected of doing it.
John Right.
Justin And, he gives me this look and shakes his head “no” like “I know what you’re thinking and no, it wasn’t me.”
John Yeah.
Justin And, then, you know, instantly, I know, okay, this is real. As he’s marching us up through the steps, it was like a mantra going off in my head. It was, “This is why you carry, this is why you carry. This is real; you’re going to have to use your gun.”
John Yeah. And that’s actually really - and as you said, I’m not criticizing at all - it’s actually the most common reaction that I’ve run into as far as talking to people. So, he’s marching you up the stairs, he’s poking you in the back with this revolver, you’ve mouthed off to him a little bit -
Justin And praying that he doesn’t, while he’s poking me with his gun, that he doesn’t feel mine in my holster. I was wearing mine about 5:00 in an inside the waist band holster.
John Ok.
Justin So, I hoping he wouldn’t find that while he was kind of pushing me up the steps.
John Alright. So, what happened next?
Justin We go into the conference room and there’s probably three feet or so between the conference table and the far wall. He instructs us all to go on the far side of the table and lay face down on the floor. So, there’s seven of us. Most of us are fairly decent sized guys. And, so, we’re laying head-to-toe and side-to-side between the table and the wall. He stays up at the head of the table. I went around to the back, trying to pick the spot furthest away from him to buy myself some time and some distance. And, while we’re laying down, he actually pulls one of the other guys back up off the floor and, to make him carry a trash bag to put whatever valuables he takes off of us, to put them into the bag.

Right before he had pulled that guy up, he instructed everybody to take off any kind of jewelry - you know, our watches, necklaces, take out your wallets - all that. He wanted us to have it out waiting for him.
John Alright.
Justin And so, while he - the second that he’s pulling the other guy up off the floor to make him carry the bag, I’m reaching back for my wallet area, trying, to make it look like I’m doing what he’s saying, but instead of drawing my, er, pulling my wallet out of my pocket, I drew my 1911 instead.
John Ok. So, you were able to do that when he was distracted, then. So, he didn’t see you do that.
Justin Right. And he started - I had just a second to do that that he wasn’t watching us.
John Right.
Justin One the things I kept telling the detectives afterwards is he was very good about keeping us all in a very tight group.
John Yeah.
Justin And, so he could keep his eye on all of us at the same time. And he didn’t take his eyes off of us very often. Because, believe me, I was looking for any opportunity I could to where I thought I, you know, could do something about it without getting everybody else hurt or killed.
John Ok.
Justin And, so, he - after he gets the guy up off the floor, he scans back over looking at us - I had just pulled it up to about my - pulled it out of the holster and had it up to about my waist. I was still laying face down on the floor, but, you know, looking up at him. When he looked back over at us, the gun was about at my chest so I just slipped it underneath my chest so he couldn’t see it. My great plan at that point was, “Alright, while he’s taking wallets and jewelry and stuff off of the other people, he’ll be distracted again and I’ll have a chance to pop up and shoot.”
John Ok. So, at that point had you come to the realization that you probably were going to have to shoot him?
Justin Absolutely.
John Alright. When -
Justin That’s -
John Go Ahead.
Justin I was going to say, when I teach my CCW classes and stuff, that’s one of the things that I also point out to them is that when I got my concealed carry permit - it’s real easy to say, you know, yes, if somebody is threatening me or my family, I’ll shoot them without hesitation and all that. We’ve all been pretty much conditioned, you know, don’t ever point a gun at somebody else. You know, don’t ever go out - don’t try to hurt other people. All that.
John Right.
Justin And, that’s something that I think that everybody should sit down and decide before they ever put that gun on is, if I’m in that situation, all bravado and ego and everything aside, will I be able to do what I need to do when the time comes. And luckily, I’d already made that decision, you know, years before and was planning on sticking by it. So, that was at least one less decision that I had to make at that point. So.
John Well, there you go. And that was actually one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you this evening anyway, because I’ve - you know, I don’t know how many of the past shows you’ve listened to or not, but - I’ve compartmentalized a lot of different areas of, you know, a civilian gunfight down into different things. And, it’s interesting because, you’ve pretty much experienced every single one of them in yours.

So, you’ve hidden the gun under your chest. He’s keeping a pretty good eye on you.
Justin Right.
John What next?
Justin My plan didn’t work out as well as I thought it would, because - and maybe it was because I mouthed off to him, I don’t know - but instead of working his way down through the group of people and giving my opportunity where he was slightly distracted, he came all the way around the table and came to me first.
John Alright.
Justin And, since I had been busy getting my gun out, I hadn’t had time to take my wallet out for him.
John Right.
Justin So, he pulled, he was standing at my right hip, and reaches down and pulls up my coat and my shirt to get to my wallet out of my back pocket, and when he did that, he found my empty holster.
John Ok.
Justin So.
John What’d you think about that when it happened?
Justin Oh, that was a little bit nerve wracking. I was, I’m not going to lie, I was fully expected to get shot in the back of the head right then and there.
John Right.
Justin Why he didn’t, I don’t know. Maybe it was just - that he - maybe I took him by surprise a little bit, that he wasn’t expecting to find that when he was looking for the wallet. It may have threw him off his game just a bit. But, what he did was start demanding the gun. And, I told him, “I don’t have the gun. I don’t have the gun. I was planning on having a couple of drinks. I don’t carry when I’m drinking. I left it out in the truck.”
John Yeah.
Justin And, he didn’t believe me. Kept demanding it. I kept denying that I had it. And finally he said, “Get up.” And, he reached down with his left hand and grabbed the back of my coat. Started pulling me up. I slid my hands underneath my chest like I was pushing myself up off the floor, and started - got my gun. My left hand was down by my hip, by my left hip. I had the gun at about center mass; started to turn into him to shoot him, and as I was turning into him, he stuck his gun inside my coat and fired the revolver.

The first round skipped, er grazed my abdomen and went through my coat, into my palm and then exited out the base of my thumb, tearing up my - you know, breaking up my thumb pretty bad.
John Now, which had was that that you got shot in first?
Justin That was my left hand first.
John Ok. Now, I’m going to backtrack just slightly.
Justin Sure.
John Where are all your friends at this point? Are they on the ground still?
Justin They are all still face down on the floor.
John Ok.
Justin What was kind of funny, but not, after the fact, you know, when we all had the chance to sit down and talk about it, and you know, a little bit comes out here and there in our discussion since then is that even though I didn’t have the bad guy convinced I didn’t have a gun, unfortunately, I had a bunch of my buddies convinced that I didn’t.
John Huh!
Justin And, they were pretty much waiting just to be - they were laying there. They were hoping, I guess, that I was going to do something, and one of the things that one of them said was that he was relieved of: when the shooting started, was that there was two distinct types of gun fire going on. He knew for sure then that I had mine and that I was fighting back. But, they all stayed face down on the floor.
John Ok. We’re talking with Justin Schnieders right now about the night he was shot. So, he’s - the bad guy has pulled you up off the ground. You’ve kind of turned into him clockwise if I remember correctly.
Justin Yes.
John And, he’s fired a round which has struck you in your left hand. How effective was that shot, and we’ve got about thirty seconds, but I mean, could you use your hand?
Justin I ended up being able to use it when I had to -
John Alright
Justin - a little bit later on. I ended up turning into him. I continued to turn into him to shoot him back. That’s when he fired the second time. And, I don’t know if he was looking at center mass or if he saw the gun and was shooting at the threat, but when he pulled the trigger the second time, it went through my right ring finger knuckle, at the base where the finger meets the hand, and ended up going through the back of my hand coming out the top of my wrist, behind it, and shattering my pinky and ring finger bones in the back of my hand.
John Ok. So, we’ve got to go to break right now, but essentially, your gunfight had started by getting shot in both hands.
Justin Correct.
John Alright. We’ll talk a little bit more with Justin about that when we come back, but right now, you’re listening to Ballistic Radio on 55KRC The Talk Station.
John Welcome back to Ballistic Radio on 55KRC The Talk Station brought to you by Kyle’s Gun Shop in Finneytown. Right now, we’re talking with Mr. Justin Schnieders, and I’m really having a hard time with that C-H right now just because I’m congested and sick. Anyway, if you would like to ask questions of Justin about the night he got shot, you can give us a call at 513-749-5500 or 1-800-823-8255. Try and get to your calls by the end of the evening if we’re able to. No promises, as always.

Anyway, Justin, still there?
Justin Yes.
John Alright. So, when we left off, you had just stood up, had gotten shot in both hands.
Justin Correct.
John Alright. So.
Justin He started kind of backing around the table, back towards the door - giving me his profile. I ended up kind of recovering from that second shot and as he’s going around the table, I squeezed off two quick shots. I ended up missing both of those. I always halfway joke with people saying, you know ,“Hey, give me a mulligan; both my hands were just shot.”
John Right.
Justin So, but regardless, I ended up missing both those.
John What kind of distance was that at, if you don’t mind me asking?
Justin The distance?
John Yeah.
Justin Across the board room, board table, plus maybe a foot or two, I’d say maybe six, seven feet.
John Alright.
Justin So, his, I take a little bit of grief from my friends about that.
John It’s a lot easier to miss than people think. Especially when you’re taking rounds. So, please continue.
Justin So, I ended up missing both those shots. I pulled the trigger a third time and nothing happened. At first, I thought I had a malfunction, which it - I had some weird thoughts flashing through my head because the reason I carried that gun was because it’s the most reliable, most accurate gun I had and I shoot the best with. And -
John What kind of gun was it again?
Justin It was Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail.
John Alright.
Justin .45.
John Ok.
Justin And, so I just pretty much immediately - I dropped behind the table kind of using it for cover a little bit - and for whatever reason, and this something else that I found really odd. Most of the time, when I did malfunction drills and stuff, I probably didn’t do them quite exactly right. I had a tendency to use my thumb and forefinger to clear, you know, to pull the slide back.
John Yeah.
Justin And, for whatever reason, it flashed through my head that I had read, on a gun board of all places, about top covering with your support hand when you pull the slide back because you have more, you know. And, I didn’t even realize at that point that my left hand had been hit.
John Ok.
Justin So, I dropped down to clear the gun, you know tap, rack, bang - that malfunction drill - and saw that I ejected a live round when I did it. When I looked down there was no stovepipe or anything. Ejected a live round. I also saw what my hands looked like at that point, which was basically bleeding all over the place.
John Right.
Justin Got the round out, popped back up from behind the table and got two more shots on him. He was continuing to shoot at me when I came back up. By that point, he had his - he was still giving me profile view and shooting one handed at me. And unfortunately, I was shooting one handed as well. But, he was reaching back for the door with his left hand, and shooting with his right. My next two shots that I got off, one of them went through his sweatshirt and t-shirt at center mass and never touched his skin. And, I’m not sure where exactly the other one was, but one of the rounds ended up clipping him - his ring finger - and the other one, which I think is probably the one that was, that went through his shirt and stuff, ended up catching him in the side of his palm, below his pinky, and then exited through the top of the back of his hand.
John Right. And I’ve seen the photos of this. It literally looks like a skylight was cut -
Justin Yeah, the .45 - 230 grain .45 did a nice job.
John Yeah.
Justin I just wish that it had been about three inches in closer instead of just going through his shirts.
John Right.
Justin He must have been hunched over just a little bit. But, that distance was probably closer to 12 to 15 feet.
John Right.
Justin It’s like the further away he got, the better I got with shooting and the worse he got.
John Yep.
Justin But, the - at some point, and I don’t know when, because I did not find out about it afterwards, til afterwards, but at some point, he had hit me a third or fourth time, however you want to count the rounds - if you want to count the one that grazed my stomach as one or not. But, he hit me with one other round that entered, oh, lower shoulder, upper chest - that area, right above my pec. The bullet ended up going through - passing just above my left lung and kind of split the difference between my subclavian artery and my lung, taking out a big vein in between them.
John Ok.
Justin So, luckily, it didn’t hit the artery. Anyway, so we’re still shooting at each other. Finally, I hear this click, click click as he’s shooting at me, and I realize and he realizes, at the same time I think, that he was out of ammo. And, I mean, before I could even get another shot off, he already had his hand on the door knob, opening it because he was going as he was shooting.
John Yeah.
Justin As soon as he realizes he was out, he high tailed it out the door and was gone.
John Ok. So, I’ll ask this real quick then we’ll forward. What kind of gun was he using?
Justin He was using a Smith and Wesson snub nose .38 Special.
John Alright. Full metal jackets or good ammunition?
Justin That’s what we assumed with the way that all the rounds had passed through me and none of them expanded. It was a little bit chilling when the night before the trial (they did find him) - the night before the trial, we went up and reviewed the photographic evidence with the prosecutor, and one of the pictures was the revolver with the cylinder swung open. And, he was using Speer Gold Dot +P’s.
John Right, which is thought of as pretty effective, most of the time.
Justin Right. I think that he didn’t have the short barrel version, and he was using a snub nose. So I’m guessing maybe it just didn’t quite have enough velocity to open them up.
John Right.
Justin That’s all speculation. Who knows.
John Yeah. So, he’s exited at this point?
Justin Correct.
John What happens next?
Justin I didn’t know if he was going outside to reload. For all I knew, he had, you know, another handful of shells in his pocket and was just waiting - going out there, you know reload, come back in and continue the fight. So, I stood there with my gun pointed at the door from the same position that I had been in and waited for him to open up the door. And I was going to - as soon as anybody poked their head through the door, obviously with target identification, but, he was going to get shot again.
John Right.
Justin Nobody every came back through the door. A minute or two passed. Finally, one of the other guys that was down on the floor jumped up and went and locked the door so he couldn’t come back in.
John Ok. Had you realized how badly you were hurt at that point?
Justin I would say no.
John Ok. So -
Justin I thought - the one that - the injury that actually hurt the most was the one that grazed off my stomach and I thought that I had been gut shot.
John Yeah.
Justin And so, finally, after the guy locked the door, I just sat down on the floor, set the gun next to me and I don’t know if anybody believes me when I say this or not. But adrenaline does - I’ve been in other situations that are pretty darn high stress, and luckily for me in the ones I’ve been in so far, adrenaline effects me really well by calming me down.
John Ok.
Justin I’ve got a heightened sense of, you know, of everything, just like everybody else does when they have adrenaline, but I’m also super calm.
John Alright.
Justin And, so I set the gun down. And, I said, “You guys might want to come over here and help me stop this bleeding.” And so the guys came over, started putting pressure on the wounds, helped me straighten out my right - my fingers on my right hand. My right hand just felt like it had gone into a real bad cramp. And so it felt better when we straightened out all my fingers.

And so I did that and one of my buddies said, “Where else were you hit?”

I said, “Nowhere,” I said, “it’s my hands and my stomach.” I said, “Make sure, you know - see how bad my stomach is, you know, how bad I’m gut shot.”
John Yeah.
Justin He said, “There’s no hole there. It’s scraped and you got powder burns, but there’s no hole.”

And I said, “Well, make double sure.”
John Yeah.
Justin And he said, “No, you got blood coming from somewhere else.”

I said, “I wasn’t hit anywhere else.”

He said, “Take off your coat.” So, I took off my coat, and sure enough, I’d been shot through the upper chest.
John Alright. We’re talking with Justin Schnieders about the night he got shot. We got about 30 seconds left, Justin, and then we’ll go to the break.
Justin Ok.
John What - I mean - What was going through your head when the fight were, fight was occurring? I mean, had you decided that it wasn’t going to happen like that, or?
Justin I wasn’t going down and I wasn’t stopping.
John Alright.
Justin And, that’s pretty much it. I didn’t want anybody - the other thing that was flashing through my head was, you know, “Please, God, don’t let anybody else get up and get in between me and him.” Because I didn’t want anybody else to get hurt. But, I wasn’t stopping until it was finished.
John Ok. Well, we’ll talk with you a little bit more when we come back, Justin.
Justin Alright.
John Right now, you’re listening to Ballistic Radio on 55KRC The Talk Station.
John Welcome back to Ballistic Radio on 55KRC The Talk Station brought to you by Kyle’s Gun Shop in Finneytown. If you have any questions for Justin tonight, you can reach us at 513-749-5500 or 1-800-823-8255. Try and get to your calls here when we’re able. Justin, are you still there?
Justin Still here.
John We got one gentleman on the line that’s got a question, but I want to hear this first. If it’s alright?
Justin Sure.
John So, what was the aftermath for the fight for you, as far as what happened medically? You said they caught that guy and he ended up in jail. Can you just give us kind of the quick run down and we’ll move forward from there?
Justin Sure. Medically, they took me to the local hospital to make sure that I was stabilized and then transported me up to the university hospital at the University of Missouri where I evidently happen to have landed one of the best orthopedic hand surgeons in this part of the country. And, he did an excellent job putting my knuckle back together. You’ve seen the pictures. There wasn’t much left of that knuckle.
John Yeah.
Justin He ended up building me a new one out of bone slivers and wire and pins. And it’s - other than being able to straighten it out completely, it’s fully functional. So, I had rehab for about a year just to try and get them all strengthened back up, and then I was good to go.
John Alright.
Justin As far as the bad guy, they ended up finding him from the blood trail. So, it’s a good thing that I didn’t stop and I did - was able to score those hits on him, to where I hit him badly enough where they followed the blood and found him.

Turns out that when we went through the whole trial and everything, he wasn’t - and of course they couldn’t bring it up in the trial because past crimes - but I was completely right that it wasn’t the guy’s first time.
John Right.
Justin He had an extensive history with this and had been in prison twice before in Minnesota for armed robbery of groups of people. So.
John And, why was he out of prison?
Justin He was - he evidently had gotten out of prison for that and moved to St. Louis where he got busted for, I believe, something like car theft and possession of crack. And so, he got put into a little bit smaller security, lower security prison which happens to be - we’ve got a kind of medium security prison here in Jefferson City as well. And, he was in there, served his three or four years for that and had been out on parole for approximately two weeks.
John Nice.
Justin And, while he was in there, he hooked up romantically with one of the female cooks in there. And, when he got out on his parole, he moved in with her. And, it just so happens that she lived in the apartment directly above these law offices where we met every Tuesday night.
John Well, there you go. So, what kind of sentence did he get for trying to kill you?
Justin He got 30 years for the assault with serious physical injury. And the way I understood it, why they didn’t charge him with - and I could be wrong about this, my understanding - with like an attempted murder is basically, here in Missouri, the sentence is the same and the assault with physical injury is a whole lot easier to prove.
John Right.
Justin So, he got thirty years for that. He got 25 years for the armed robbery, and he got 10 years for armed criminal action and another 10 years for - and I forget the technical term, but it’s basically being a felon in possession of a firearm.
John Right.
Justin And, thank goodness, the judge decided to run all those sentences consecutively, so he ended up with 75 years. And, because of his priors and because of violating his parole, the way I understand it, he’s obligated to serve at least 85% of the sentencing, which puts him in 60 some years. And, he was about 37 when he attacked us.
John Alright.
Justin So -
John So, he’s probably going to die in prison.
Justin Yep. That’s what it sounds like.
John Excellent. We got a call real quick. Do you mind taking a call, Justin?
Justin No. Sure.
John Alright. We’ve got Adam from Missouri. Adam are you there?
Adam I’m here, man.
John Alright. Thanks for calling in tonight. What can we help you with?
Adam Hey, you bet. Thanks a lot guys. Thanks for taking my call, John and Justin. First, John, quick sidebar. Man, you got a great show. The episodes are just awesome. The people you have on, especially tonight’s episode. This is really heavy stuff, man, and I think it can really save some lives. Thanks a lot.
John I really appreciate that, man.
Adam You bet. Justin?
Justin Yes?
Adam Man, you are an inspiration, sir. So, try and kind of get to the point. My main question is is after this incident and surviving this and all that you’ve been through, how’s your perspective changed on the importance of caliber? Or the importance of capacity and, you know, do you believe, you know, with Gomez’s old saying of “ammo in the gun is time in the fight”? What about, you know, mechanical safeties on guns, especially thumb safeties. The way that your hands were shot up, has your opinion changed on those things?
Justin Starting out with the caliber, I think that with all the advances that there are with defensive pistol rounds now, there is really very, very little difference that I’ve seen in like those FBI ballistic gelatin tests that would lead you to believe that there’s a huge advantage of one over the other. They seem to be fairly equal now. So, I’m comfortable with 9, .40, .45. For me, it comes to whichever I shoot best - whatever gun.

What was the next one?
John Grip safeties?
Justin Grip safety and thumb safety. I’m, once again, I’m comfortable with either. As far as a thumb safety - I talked to you a little bit about it, John - I, you know, my first recollection, you know, or guess at it was that I may have flicked off the safety as I was coming up, standing up to turn into him. Just because I didn’t remember exactly, I thought, ok, maybe that’s when I did it. It turns out, one of the guys laying next to me said that he heard or saw me flip it as I was drawing it out. So, my muscle memory of, you know, drawing and immediately flipping the safety off held true even in a high stress situation because I developed that muscle memory. So, is it one more thing that can go wrong? Sure. For some people, it’s a matter of comfort. You know, whether they - not everybody is as comfortable with carrying a Glock as a 1911 just because of the manual safeties. And, kind of what it boils down to for me is I’m not going to tell anybody what to carry or not to carry. It’s going to come down to whatever you shoot the best, whatever you’re the most comfortable with. Because if you are not comfortable with it, you’re not going to be carrying it. If you’re not carrying it, then you have no gun for the gunfight.
John Right.
Justin So.
John Adam, does that answer your question?
Adam Yeah, absolutely. Very insightful. I agree with all his points. Very good stuff.
John Hey, thanks, Adam. I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening.
Adam You bet. You, too, man. Thanks a lot.
John Yep.
Justin Thank-you.
John So, we got, oh, two or three minutes left, Justin. Now, what are you doing with yourself now as far as - I mean, you’re doing concealed carry instruction now where you’re at?
Justin I am. One of my really good friends up in Kansas City, Chad, kind of pushed in a direction, you know - told me, “You know what,” he said, “you really have a great story that really ought to be shared with the concealed carry community.” You know, to help teach a little bit of perspective and mindset on it and everything. And, he convinced me to go ahead and start teaching concealed carry classes. And, so, I kind of do that as a side job now, and I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve gotten a lot of experience in helping completely new shooters. I was a little bit surprised by that, of course. Because when I went and took my concealed carry course, I - I’m not saying that I was the best in the world, but I at least had a fairly decent amount of experience.
John Right.
Justin But, it’s really neat to take somebody that’s never shot before and get them to where their keeping them in the ten - nine or ten ring on a target on their first outing with shooting.
John Excellent.
Justin And, to be able to try to teach them about the importance of carrying and the mindset that you don’t stop. You just -
John Yeah.
Justin Once it’s started, there’s only two ways it’s going to end. Either the threat’s going to be stopped, or you’re going to be stopped. Don’t know about you, but I know which end of it I want to be on.
John Yeah. Yeah. Just deciding not to lose. We got about a minute and a half left. I’m just curious, and once again, not being critical at all - you went home to your family and all your buddies were safe - if there was one that thing you could change about how you handled that situation, just one, what would it be?
Justin Oh, there’s actually several. I mean, if I had had a little bit more training here and there, maybe I would have found or seen an opportunity a little bit earlier that would have still been effective without getting anybody else hurt.
John Right.
Justin Maybe I was looking for too-safe an opportunity, you know. The other things would be, you know, once I got additional training, would I have become a lot more comfortable with shooting and moving at the same time?
John Yeah.
Justin Granted, I was standing in the middle of a bunch of guys, so maybe my first step would have been tripping over one of them.
John Right.
Justin And that may not have ended well, either. But, shooting and moving instead of just being a big six foot two broadside target -
John Right.
Justin Would have been helpful. And, the other thing is being able to think quickly enough to where, for example, when we were coming through that door, if I could have positioned myself in a little bit better situation where I could have been just waiting for him. And, the whole incident would have ended right then and there as he walked through the door.
John Yeah. Hey, Justin, I really appreciate you coming on the show tonight. Man, I’m glad -
Justin Thank-you for having me, John. I really enjoyed it.
John Hey, no problem. Glad that you made it out ok.

So, next week, we’re going to be talking with Darryl Bolke of Hardwired Tactical Shooting about all sorts of cool stuff. Also, too, I’ll actually be talking about the 25,000 round torture test I’ll be doing in December of this year.

Anyway, make sure you check us out at ballisticradio.com. You can also like us on facebook.com/ballisticradio. As always, be safe, thanks for listening here on 55KRC The Talk Station.
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